Welcome to episode #150 of Explode Your Expert Biz Show, brought to you by http://gtex.org.uk/,
I am your host, Simone Vincenzi, The Experts Strategist, and this is the podcast for experts who want to become the ultimate authority in their niche while making an impact in the world.
Today I have the pleasure to interview Cindy Etsell
Cindy is the author of Cooking up Success, Her personal career journey meant experiencing change on a vast scale working across several sectors working her way up from senior manager to Director.
In this episode, we talk about
- The #1 quality for great leaders
- The 34 pillars you must have to be an outstanding leader
- How to create real transformation in your organisation
Connect with Cindy
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– Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Explode Your Expert Biz Show. And today I’m here with the one and only Cindy Etsell. How you doing, Cindy?
– Fantastic. Sun’s shining, I’m absolutely spectacular.
– Oh, that’s brilliant. I’m really happy to hear that. Now, today is all about leadership. This is what we’re going to talk about on this show. And we also, we are going to talk about cooking. We’re going to make sure we talk about cooking. It’s going to be a cooking, a cooking, slash, leadership class. I’m really excited.
– I’m really excited about this show. Now, Cindy, before we get started and talking about leadership and what makes a great leader and how can we use leadership to grow our business, then what I would love to hear from you is how did you get involved in the leadership sphere?
– Oh, well that’s a long story and a long journey, but the highlights basically start with, you know, moving from Canada about 20 years ago, where I had been in sales and marketing for a long time. And moving from, you know, starting out as a sales rep and then being their senior rep and them saying, hey, you know, we have a little opportunity for you in London. Wouldn’t you like to come and launch our product line? So that transformed me and transported me from, you know, being a salesperson right up to being a senior marketing manager. And I had never done marketing before. So on the calm, on the surface I was calm, underneath I was running as fast as I can, just like a duck paddling water. So that was kind of that journey in terms, and before, and, you know, in terms of my goal and that path. And before I knew it, I had a team of people and I was trying to figure out, how in the world do I motivate, you know, motivate, inspire, and lead at the same time. And that made me realise how important leadership was. So I started reading a lot on leadership and trying to put into practise, you know, little tidbits of everything that I’d read. And a lot of that was about open door policy, management by walking around, listening, being inquisitive, and then listening and responding back to my team. And from there I moved into a amazing role with the government. And that was setting up a whole new business with four other people, trying to turn a government business into a profitable recruitment outplacement company. And that was the biggest learning of all. So that’s kind of that story, which then, the final piece of that was moving in, well, the final piece to get me really into that leadership was moving then into a technology, well, several technology roles from, and, you know, from senior marketing manager, head of marketing, chief marketing officer. So you learn as you go and you keep learning every single day. And now I’ve decided to take that and help others achieve and become the best they can possibly be in terms of training to be that leader.
– I’m really curious about what was your biggest highlight, in terms of leadership, if you can think about a moment where you were leading a team and, you know, sometimes you have those moments where, even like money cannot pay, cannot be good enough for the feeling that we get in that moment. So what was your highlight when you were leading the team?
– Wow, there’s a few, and I think probably the one for me was that the first really strong leadership role that I had, when I was in the publishing sector here, as marketing director, and that was taking my team from zero, so we had had a little bit of success, but we managed to take our product line so it became 60% of revenue for the whole business. And that, for me, was absolutely inspirational. And that was my team, but it was also my virtual team. So all of us pulling together to really create and focus on that end goal, which was driving revenue, which was fantastic.
– And how about another moment where you managed to turn around with your leadership skill a situation that people would say, oh my god, like, literally, oh, we do something right now or we’re done?
– Well, I think that, probably, for me was when, I’m trying to think, what was the best, most likely when we were in a situation, and this is almost like, not necessarily a team, but leading people who I was coaching and mentoring, and that would be my first opportunity when I was sharing a story, and the story goes something like this, I’m a salesperson, I’m a senior salesperson, and I am talking to board-level individuals and I’m closing a deal. I’m in the middle of nowhere, in a very remote spot, trying to close this deal at a university. And I walk into the room and I ask, you know, we go through, is this correct, are you, we’re gonna give you this, this, and this? Really only to sign the deal. And then the decision-maker looks at me, he winks at me, and he goes, and what else are you gonna give me? Absolutely. And it was kind of one of those things where you think, ooo, don’t let them see you sweat, you don’t wanna lose the deal. It’s all about that self-belief and confidence under pressure. So I thought, okay, I want this deal, I’ve been working on it forever, I’m certainly not giving him anything else. So I said, could you just clarify for me what you mean by that? I’m gonna give you a product that meets the needs you’ve identified at a price you can afford, and in the time we’ve agreed, and if you’re really nice, the company will buy you a cup of coffee. And he burst out laughing and he said, well, it was worth a try, and he signed the deal. For me, that was a turning point, you know, in how to flip a situation from a negative to a positive. But I tell you, I was shaking when I left that room, for sure.
– I can imagine. Oh my god, like, I’m sure like your head was spinning in that moment.
– It was. How did you keep your calm?
– Well, you know, I, when I, early in my career, I was a criminologist, so I was trained to work with victims of violent crime. And you have to do mirroring and you can show no emotion on your face, which is extremely difficult because you hear some horrific things. So I kind of went back to that time. You know, it’s kind of remembering those times when you’ve had to deal with a difficult situation. And breathing is really good, so I kinda just took a very good breath in, calmed myself down, and I thought, there’s now way you’re gonna get this one over on me. And literally, you know, then when you leave, that’s when you start shaking, going, oh my god, what did I just do? So it was a fantastic, powerful moment in time that has helped me move much faster forward.
– And where are you from originally?
– So I’m originally from Canada, so the middle, the prairies, as people will call it, Winterpeg. But then I left there and I moved to Vancouver and I’ve been in London now for 20 years. Which goes like, you know, lightning speed. But, you know, it’s such a fantastic city.
– What do you prefer? Like, if you have to, I know it’s a tough question.
– It is indeed.
– Canada, like, Vancouver, or London?
– Well, I would say at the moment in time, London. I mean, when I go back to Canada, I enjoy it, but London, there’s so much energy, the culture, the history, the people, well, maybe not politics at the moment, but also my proximity to Europe. You know, and I think one of my most amazing moments was being able to call, when I was at Cisco, on Louis Vuitton in Paris, doing a sales presentation. That would never happen, never, never would you have that opportunity in Canada. So, London, most times and most days, especially in a heat wave.
– Oh, we are loving our heat wave. And guys, you’re listening to this podcast, and maybe by the time you’re listening to it, the heat wave is gone, or if you’re not living in London, then you know that London is not known in the world for being the sunniest and warmest place. But for the past two weeks, has been like being in L.A. here and it’s been an incredible time.
– It has been.
– So I have one more question–
– Before we dive into leadership. You wrote an incredible book called Cooking Up Success. What inspired you, so first of all, actually, is this a cooking book? Is it a cook–
– No it’s not.
– It’s not a cook, oh, okay, we have addressed that. So it’s not a cook, of course I knew that, but, but the question is, what inspired you to write this book and call it that way?
– Well, I think for me, I mean, my two passions are people and food. And if you think about it, when you are at a party, or anywhere, where do people congregate? No matter how small the room is, the kitchen, right? Why do you think they do that?
– I don’t know.
– Because everything you need’s in the kitchen.
– That’s true.
– So I thought, well, let’s use food as a metaphor for change. Because I’ve had and gone through such tremendous change in my career, especially since moving to London, I think about that journey, you know, from publishing to recruitment to government, back into tech, and then back again full circle into outplacement coaching and leadership coaching and presenting. And I thought, how can I combine that in a journey? And that’s what Cooking Up Success came from. It’s my kind of personal journey in the 20 years of living in London. But the main reason I wrote it is because, by sharing the stories, the funny stories, the terrifying ones, and wielding into that, you know, making sure it’s like a needle sewing thread throughout the book is little tidbits on food. So you’ve got tips from Cindy’s recipe book. So you do get a cooking tips in there and a recipe in the book, but it’s mainly about using food as that metaphor for change to break down the barriers and make it a little more digestible and fun. So by–
– I love it.
– Excellent, thank you.
– I absolutely love it. And I think that food is such a great metaphor. We were discussing, when we met recently, that food can be, is made with the different ingredients and there are all the different ingredients that can be separate pieces together. And sometimes it feels like, when you’re running a team or you’re leading a team, you have all the different people that are different ingredients and now, suddenly, you are there and you need to make sure that they gel together and all the different people are contributing to what becomes then an amazing dish, the amazing end result that then we want to create. And that’s, I think, is a nice segue in talking about leadership because you have, you told me that you have three things that make a great leader.
– And I’m curious right now, it’s like, okay, I’m all ears. What are those three things, Cindy?
– Well, I think the most important one is communication. So communication is, you know, a lot of people say, well, I’m a great communicator. But it’s not just about communication as a whole, it’s about how you break that down. So I may have an amazing vision and that’s my monologue, that amazing vision, but if I can take that vision and transform it into a dialogue with everybody who I touch with that vision, so I can tell my story and I can get people along for the ride, then the powerful thing that happens is, all the sudden that vision becomes a reality. You know, of course, given market conditions and everything else. But there’s a lot of people who have a wonderful vision, but there’s no focus and what they’re unable to do is to communicate it in a way that people understand and get on board. So that’s number one, communication is key. And, of course, we could spend a good two hours just talking about communication. Because there’s verbal communication, but there’s also nonverbal communication. And the power there is, if I say something but my body language says something completely else and I’m completely unaware of that, then again, I’m not gonna get the message across that I really wanna convey to my audience, to my market, and to my colleagues.
– Absolutely. And people who work for me, the people on their way up that need to embrace that. The second thing is around empathy. So I must really be able to empathise and understand and deal with people. So you know, so that empathising, a lot of people, again, you’ve got great leaders. And in, you know, there was a recent quote about something about 85% of companies, when asked, say there’s a serious shortage of leaders for the future. And they are desperately trying to find a way to make that happen. And what’s fascinating is, the old-school thought was, if you were a leader, it was about power and control. Well, the millennials, boomers, everybody now, that’s not enough. We want to be able to understand. When I was doing a lot of stuff in retail, I used to use an equation: propensity to buy is equal to affordability, features, and benefits. But when you tug at the heart-string and you absolutely get people to buy in with what you’re doing, all of the other conditions go out the window. So empathising is really, really, really key. Then the–
– I have a question.
– For sure.
– Before we move to the third one.
– I find empathy to be a very tricky one. Personally, I’m thinking about my personal experience about managing a team, as well. And where do you draw the line between empathising but still getting things done, in some situation, or empathising too much? Because at the end of the day, a team is there to create an end result.
– And I believe, and this is a core belief that I have, that everyone is important, but no one is indispensable. That’s something that we have in GDEX as a core because we are all there to make sure that we create something amazing and as long as we are all together creating it, we are all important. The moment you don’t do it, there’s the door. So I’m very, and so I’ve been struggling with this power/empathy kind of fight. Where do you see the balance, or where do you see the line there?
– Well you’re absolutely, you know, you couldn’t have put it better. Empathy, when I’m saying empathetic, there is a line, absolutely. So there are always gonna be people in a team who are gonna take the mickey a bit, aren’t there? So you must really be able to, part of being a good manager and a good leader is setting realistic, achievable goals. But it’s also about developing the people in your team. And a lot of people are completely unaware of what their achievements are. So, for instance, when you are managing that team, senior manager, junior manager, middle manager, it’s really important that you understand the different personalities. You know, part of that cultural fit’s really important. And that’s about personality and about management and working style. But what you also need to do is understand what, each one of them, make them tick. And sometimes a team doesn’t work because there’s too many of the same people in that team. Too many completer/finishers and not enough visionaries, for instance. Or there’s big picture people, but they’re unable to make a plan. You know, and it’s really important that your team is comprised of that mix that’s gonna make you successful. So empathy is really about understanding what makes each person tick. Also taking the time to feed that back. You know, and I don’t mean feeding it back in a really horrible way, but feeding it back through appraisals, you know, what you’re doing really well, you know, what you could do better, and then finishing on what else is doing really well. And I will give you an example that I had a middle manager who was reporting to me and she kept having, and I got her to report stuff to the board. And we’d sit in that board room and she would never be taken seriously. So she came to me, she said, I don’t understand why this is happening. And I said, well, what you’re doing is you’re coming to us with a whole list of problems. So what I want you to do is think about each of those problems, focus on one, and then think about it from a 360, okay, here’s my problem, here’s my suggestions for solving that problem. When you present that to me as a manager, then I’m probably gonna listen a lot more. So it’s, again, making sure that you draw the line. I mean you can’t be too, you can’t be best friends with the people you work with. I mean, you can try, but at some point in the line, you’re gonna have to draw that line in the sand and say, look, I really appreciate you, admire you, and I respect what you do, but now you’re taking the mickey. See what I mean?
– You know, and again, that’s about clear, definable key performance indicators, doing the appraisals that a lot of companies put in place and nobody does them because we never have time. And then the managers don’t have time because they’ve got too many to do. So it’s really about obtainable, clear, measurable, time-framed results. And so, but still having the empathy and making sure you’re out and about and you’re talking to the people. You know, that you’re not sitting behind this big office, that you’re out there listening and hearing and, you know, if they want to want to know something, but also it’s about that communication as well. So it’s about making sure they know where the company is. Because everyone hates when a rule’s put in place and nobody understands why. Does that answer your question?
– Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it answered the question. Thank you for explaining it so clearly. Because I think that, as I was struggling with it, I think that a lot of people that are listening right now, they might have a very similar question. And, as you suggested, it’s about setting boundaries and about setting clear boundaries, setting clear, achievable goals, deadlines and time frames, and then within that structure, look at creating and really understanding the value of the individual and taking time to value the individual and to understand what’s going on, as well, because sometimes it can just be a bad moment that they have and something small that you can put in place can make all the difference for them.
– Oh, definitely.
– There is a lot going on and I have these things that I’m not the best manager in the world. I’m a good leader, but I’m not a great manager. That’s why I have a manager. Because, you know, in my personality traits, I’m the kind of person that I’ll go 100 miles an hour and I’m like, why are you there? So I need someone there, and that’s healthy for one side because the company’s growing, there is a lot of innovation happening, there is explosive growth, but then I kind of always have my team like catching up with me because I don’t take time to feed it back to them. So once we put someone in place, that said, okay, you, Simone, do your thing, you keep going 100 miles an hour I’ll make sure that everyone is sorted and we are all moving together, then my life became better and the team morale went up because finally they had someone who naturally, not forcefully, because for me, just doesn’t happen by nature, I’m like, I’m going.
– But that brings me to the third point, which is about delegation.
– Right, perfect, oh, brilliant.
– So, great segue, where you just voiced it perfectly. The big problem is, you know, there’s a lot of individuals who are, they have a vision, they’re innovative, they’re focused, and they’ve got a transformational, and they can transform a company. But when a company gets to a certain size, and there’s a great quote on, they use a triangle, people, revenue, and products, it’s like a triangle. And when you focus on the revenue only, the rest gets lost and the company starts to have challenges. And the person who’s leading should be leading, leading, looking at innovation, looking at new markets and how we’re gonna grow, and then, but it’s really important that you bring in an operational manager who can actually then transform that, take that transformational style and implement it into a plan and lead the rest of the individuals in the company. And a lot of people don’t. They hang on, you know, and they won’t let go and that’s when it ends up going right, you know, like that. So absolutely, you need that operational. Think about what you’re really good at and what you’re not good at. And no man or no woman is an island. And no leader is born. A leader isn’t born, a leader is made through understanding, growing, changing, and recognising when it’s time to bring in the right person to help them move forward.
– You mentioned delegation right now. Do you have some rules or guidelines for our listeners right now that are in the process of maybe doing their first hires or maybe they already have a staff, but they’re not delegating, they know that they can do a better job at delegating? Can you give, do you have some rules or guidelines for effective delegation?
– Well, that depends on the individual. So each individual, the more you know yourself and the more you are open and push yourself a little bit every day, out of that comfort zone, and being realistic, so having a coach, like you and I are working together, even though I know what I need to do, sometimes I need someone to bounce those ideas off of. So I think it’s really important that you find yourself a mentor, a coach, and of course, I do executive coaching, as well, is kind of finding that middle ground so that you recognise what happens. What I used to do, and one of the rules of thumb, when I was, we were setting up this business and it was in government, so you can imagine the parameters in which we had to work. We had one, we had someone operational managing everything and he would not delegate. So I said, I want you to write down every single thing that you do in a day. I just want every little piece and how long it’s taking you. And then I want to put, what’s your priority. So he prioritised, and I said, so, you’ve got all the other stuff that’s left. Does that mean that it’s not gonna get done? So now I want you to think, who else is in the team or people that, you know, we can outsource to an agency, a third party, which will allow you to step back and do that. And that was phenomenally powerful. You know, if you look at, Stephen Covey has a fantastic book called First Things First. It’s a bit difficult to read and get through, but basically what he does is, he focused on the four quadrants of time management. And there’s a lot happening in quadrant one, three, and four but it’s quadrant two that you really want to focus on as a leader because it helps you move forward. Or a manager.
– Can you give, for people that have not read, can you give a reminder of what’s in the quadrant? If you remember that.
– To be quite frank, I remember that one of them is the noise. So one of them is, you know, the emails you get every day, all the emails, all the emails, all the emails, the phone calls, and what do we do? We’re constantly trying to call them back. So what he suggests, and I did a very thorough time management, I presented on time management, is put time in the diary at the beginning of the day, 20 minutes, put time in the diary maybe at noon, 10, 15 minutes, and then at the end of the day, and that’s your time to return phone calls and emails. If you’re getting too many emails and you’re lucky enough to have a virtual assistant or a PA, and you trust them and you can get them to kind of get rid of the garbage. Because we get a lot of stuff that we’re never gonna look at. The other, the third quadrant, if I remember correctly, so I might be mixing them up a bit, because it’s been a while since I’ve looked at the four, but the content in the next one is really about all of the people who are coming to your desk. You know, you’re trying to, and you’ve got a time frame, and you, open office, you’re trying to do a piece of work, and you’ve got this noise in your ear all the time. People are, because you’re well respected, you’re open, and this is a tough part of being a manager, or being an expert, so that’s when, is why you need to be really firm, because everyone wants a piece of you, and say, look, I’m really sorry, can you write, I’ll put that on my list to do, but I’ve got these three priorities to do first. So it’s really, really, and then the other quadrant is the other thing, the third-party stuff, the events, people wanting budget, people, there’s all of that, it’s all important in a different way. But if you don’t start looking at quadrant number two, which is focus, vision, planning, looking at how I get into new markets, business development, then your company will not succeed, but you will also have a lot of people doing, running at 100 miles an hour, but delivering nothing.
– Yeah, that’s such a great, that’s so powerful. Thank you very much for sharing, Cindy, I appreciate it.
– You’re more than welcome. And I’m happy to send, I think I’ve got the quadrant pieces of work, which I can send to you and you can post if you’d like, as well.
– Yeah, so if you can send it to me, then we’ll put it in the show notes when the podcast is gonna be published.
– So guys that, now if you’re listening or you’re watching then check out the show notes because there is going to be a link where you can download the quadrants so you can work on it. Because something that I’ve done recently that changed my life is something called time blocking and I think that, I don’t know if Stephen Covey talks about that in that book, but it says what Cindy was saying, just, what just said, what Cindy just said so far. Blocking time for when you’re going to get back to people and when you’re going to do your emails, when you’re going to do your social media posts, when you are going to do your sales calls, and in particular if you are in this industry, most of the time you might not have at the beginning a big team or you’re doing everything by yourself or you might have a small team with two or three people. So it’s a very still flexible environment to be in where there are roles, but the roles can merge into each other when the needs happen. That’s the nature of these kind of companies at the beginning stage. So make sure that you block your time so you can focus on your priorities. And then you train, because what you did, Cindy, you said you’re training the other people in how to interact with you, the other team members.
– Because once things are clear, hey, I’ve got this priority you’re next on the list, let me do this first, I’ll get back to you next, and you do this two or three times, they already know. So the first time they might be, ooo, why, I’m not important enough?
– Yes, absolutely, yeah, that’s what they say.
– But then they just, by you explaining that, it’s not about the person is not important, it’s about there are other priorities in your list that needs to be done before you tackle the other one. I now want to transition to the, to our lifting the veil section. We are lifting the veil on something that you are doing currently or that you are using or a resource or a tool that makes a difference in your business. What is that, Cindy?
– Well, there’s a few. Of course, working with you, Simone, that’ll be the number one, right, making the difference.
– Yes, thank you! I appreciate it. Oh, my ego feels so good right now.
– I thought you’d like that. The other key thing that I’m doing is, networking is kind of a dirty word in the UK, and I run a lot of workshops on building a networking strategy and how you combine that with body language to create that impact. What I do is that it, but it also can really take hours and hours and hours of time. So what I’ve been doing is, I went through my LinkedIn contacts, I drew out the people that I know, my focus, leadership, technology, medium, small, medium, and large corporates, and looking at the companies I work for and who I know that are leaders that really are trying to develop their people, and I have been using that to kind of just follow up. I send them a quick note, or every day, when I’m on the train or I’m on the bus or whatever form of transportation, when it’s working, I must say, is I try and take five minutes and I look, LinkedIn for me is really my social media channel, that and Twitter, I look at that to see if there’s anything happening. And I don’t spend a lot of time. But with my contacts, I look quickly, what, who’s doing what and what’s happening. And if I see anything to do with leadership and entrepreneurial, podcasting, anything like that, I send them a note and say, you know, it’d be great to catch up. So, I see you’re doing this, I’ve gone on it, it looks great. And then, you know, you follow through with that. So from one, if you think about it this way, we used to have four degrees of separation, six degrees of separation, and now it’s four. So if every single person knows 10 people, within that fourth connection we’ll have reached out to 10,000 people. And so don’t think about networking. In Canada, we don’t say we’re networking, really, we say we’re going to meet new people. So think about it that way. Don’t worry and don’t try and sell yourself and what you’re doing immediately. Have a conversation. Every single person you talk to, you’re networking.
– So forming solid relationships, being true, being extremely positive. My favourite, favourite acronym that I was taught when I was about 19 by my best friend’s father was PMA: positive mental attitude. Glass half full, not half empty. And we all have those days when they feel really half empty, especially as solo-preneurs.
– So you can read my blog on solo-preneurs and how to motivate yourself, as well. But it’s the, it’s that–
– Is the blog on LinkedIn or?
– It’s on LinkedIn, yeah, it’s on LinkedIn. And it’s kinda how to motivate yourself when you get to that point and you’re like, oh my goodness.
– So send me the link, as well. So we’re gonna put it in the show notes.
– Fantastic. Cindy, it’s been a wonderful interview. I love it. Jam-packed. Now is, what I would love to, now is your time to share with our audience how they can connect with you, how they can get in touch with you, maybe they want to get your book. All yours.
– Thank you very much. You can get in touch with me at www.cookingupsuccess, all one word, .co.uk. You can, if you want, in the next 10 days, you want a copy of the book, it’s available on Amazon, both, and it’s available on pretty much every social network. However, if you want a physical copy of the book, I always have some with me. So if you’ve been on this podcast, within the next 10, 15 days, you can buy this book and instead of 12.99, for 9.99, plus postage. So that’s an offer for you. The other way you can get in touch with me is, of course, LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn all the time and I’m posting continually. And that’s just, just look me up, Cindy Etsell at LinkedIn. And I think I’ve, we’ve got the link after the show, don’t we?
– Yes, exactly. We have it, also the LinkedIn connection, so you can connect with Cindy and, in particular, ride this wave of leadership because maybe you know someone who’s running an organisation or you run an organisation where their really core focus is in development and leadership and developing people and developing on the staff, then Cindy’s the best person you can bring in because we’ve been knowing each other for a few months now and every time we talk, I’m always impressed about the amount of experience that you have, how much you know, and all these different situations that you’ve been to. So we know that if you go into a company, the company’s sorted, they are in really safe hands. So make sure you connect with Cindy and see what, which areas can be relevant so you can collaborate and do some work together.
– One thing, Simone, I forgot to say, if you want a copy of the book, don’t order it on my website because it’ll go straight to Amazon. Just send me a note in LinkedIn or fill in a contact form and I’ll send you, we’ve got PayPal online, but you can just send it to me and we can sort out the rest later.
– Fantastic, brilliant. So guys, make sure you get a book. It is incredible, you must have it, and we are going to have all the links to get a book and to connect with Cindy here in the show notes. Cindy, thank you very much for joining our show. It’s been a brilliant interview.
– Pleasure, it has been enjoyable and fun. So thank you, Simone, for inviting me.
– Oh, fantastic. And ladies and gentlemen, I hope you had a great time, too. But if you have been listening so far, I’m sure you did. So there’s one more thing to do: subscribe! If you haven’t subscribed to our podcast or to our YouTube channel, subscribe right now and also leave us a five-star review. Let us know, what did you enjoy the most about this show? Until next time, remember that together we grow exponentially. Ciao!